Diskuse
Diskuse o hudebních stylech, kapelách, hudebních nástrojích, technice hry, aj.
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Téma: Pazvuk na strune G - strato MIM
[noise]
Pazvuk na strune G - strato MIM -
Nástroje > Kytary
Poraďte niekto ako odstániť pazvuk, ktorý sa ozýva na strate pri hre na skreslený kanál zosilňovača, ak sa hrá na strune G. Pri silnom ataku na strunu G sa okrem skresleného tónu ozve aj nepríjemné "zachrčanie", ktoré neviem odkiaľ lezie. Na tejto stránke sa tento problém už rozoberal, boli tam rady ako ...zatlmiť struny tremola.., to však k ničomu nevedie. Ak ste mali niekto podobný problém, poraďte čo robiť. Ďakujem.
Pazvuk na strune G - strato MIM -
Nástroje > KytaryPoraďte niekto ako odstániť pazvuk, ktorý sa ozýva na strate pri hre na skreslený kanál zosilňovača, ak sa hrá na strune G. Pri silnom ataku na strunu G sa okrem skresleného tónu ozve aj nepríjemné "zachrčanie", ktoré neviem odkiaľ lezie. Na tejto stránke sa tento problém už rozoberal, boli tam rady ako ...zatlmiť struny tremola.., to však k ničomu nevedie. Ak ste mali niekto podobný problém, poraďte čo robiť. Ďakujem.
Seznam příspěvků:
[havran]
Hum
Budu po tom taky patrat, protoze me to dela taky. Jak na mem Les Paul Studio, tak na stratu Lee Hooker RH+. Slyset je to zejmena v polohach nad sedmym prazcem, ale je zvlastni, ze stejne noty zahrane na jinych strunach takovou paseku nedelaji. Ten zvuk bych nepopsal jako zachrceni, ale spis jako kratke zahuceni nebo zabuceni. MMUU. Neni to slyset nijak zvlast, nekytarysta si toho nevsimne, ale clovek, kterej nasloucha tonu, kterej vytvari si toho nemuze nevsimnout. Ja to z nejakyho duvodu pricital navrub attenuatoru Marshall PB-100, ale obe moje komba (oba elektronkove, jeden dokonce s vrabcimhnizdem misto tistenych spoju) to delaji i bez nej. Pravda zkousel jsem to jen jednou. Ono vytavit 60W v panelaku jde jen kratce. Na simulatoru Line6 PODxt vsak tento jev nepozoruju! Que pasa, que onda?
Hum
Budu po tom taky patrat, protoze me to dela taky. Jak na mem Les Paul Studio, tak na stratu Lee Hooker RH+. Slyset je to zejmena v polohach nad sedmym prazcem, ale je zvlastni, ze stejne noty zahrane na jinych strunach takovou paseku nedelaji. Ten zvuk bych nepopsal jako zachrceni, ale spis jako kratke zahuceni nebo zabuceni. MMUU. Neni to slyset nijak zvlast, nekytarysta si toho nevsimne, ale clovek, kterej nasloucha tonu, kterej vytvari si toho nemuze nevsimnout. Ja to z nejakyho duvodu pricital navrub attenuatoru Marshall PB-100, ale obe moje komba (oba elektronkove, jeden dokonce s vrabcimhnizdem misto tistenych spoju) to delaji i bez nej. Pravda zkousel jsem to jen jednou. Ono vytavit 60W v panelaku jde jen kratce. Na simulatoru Line6 PODxt vsak tento jev nepozoruju! Que pasa, que onda?
[havran]
Buceni pri prebuzeni koncoveho zesilovace
Veru, nejspis se nakonec muj prispevek k diskusi neshoduje s jejim tematem, nicmene budu pokracovat v popisu meho pripadu. To zabuceni se ozyva, jak jsem vypozoroval, az kdyz jsou citelneji zasazene elektronky ve vykonove casti zesilovace. Predzesilovac muzu tavit jakkoliv vysokym gainem, tam problem tedy zrejme nebude. Jakmile ovsem uroven hlasitosti na master volume presahne urcitou mez (at uz na cistem nebo zkreslenem kanale) nebo kdyz je celkova hlasitost nastavena tesne pod okamzik, kdy zacne zesilovac bucet, a silnejsim uderem koncak i jen lehce prebudim, to zabuceni se ozve. Kdyz pak signal slabne, buceni v zavislosti na jeho puvodni sile tu drive, tu pozdeji zmizi. Kdyz je kytara krmena i nejakou krabickou, muze tak zesilovac bucet i pomerne dlouho.
To zabuceni bych popsal jako hluboky ton, ktery se ozve spolu s hranym. Asi bych ani nerekl, ze by s ouvdnim tonem nejak ladil. Proste buci a znervoznuje me. Po dnesnim experimentovani s PowerBrakem si myslim, ze by ho preslechnout nemohla ani moje holka (a ja pochybyju, ze bych mel nejak extremne citlivy sluch). Nachylne k buceni jsou struny G a tlustsi a to od noty C vyse. Treba uz takove E zahrane na strune G zahrane na devatem prazci me privadi uplne k zoufalstvi. Stejny ton na vinutych strunach je snad jen trochu mene deprimujici. E zahrane na strune H (paty prazec) je na tom o poznani lepe. Zrejme na ten pazvuk maji vliv ty frekvence produkovane silnejsimi strunami.
Tento jez pozoruju jak na zes. Marshall JTM 612 se dvema EL34, tak u reissue modelu 1974x se dvema EL84 ve vykonovem zesilovaci.
Je to normalni? Je to vec obvodu a nektere zesilovace (typy/kusy) to holt delaji a jine ne? Zpusobuji to silnejsi struny (10 na stratu, 11 na Les Paulu)? Spatne elektronky v koncaku (v obou zesilovacich jsou vsechny prakticky nove)? Muze to byt treba elektrickou siti v nasem dome (nejake zarizeni u sousedu nebo ve vybaveni domu me treba ve dne v noci rusi)? Kdo vi, at prosim napovi.
Buceni pri prebuzeni koncoveho zesilovace
Veru, nejspis se nakonec muj prispevek k diskusi neshoduje s jejim tematem, nicmene budu pokracovat v popisu meho pripadu. To zabuceni se ozyva, jak jsem vypozoroval, az kdyz jsou citelneji zasazene elektronky ve vykonove casti zesilovace. Predzesilovac muzu tavit jakkoliv vysokym gainem, tam problem tedy zrejme nebude. Jakmile ovsem uroven hlasitosti na master volume presahne urcitou mez (at uz na cistem nebo zkreslenem kanale) nebo kdyz je celkova hlasitost nastavena tesne pod okamzik, kdy zacne zesilovac bucet, a silnejsim uderem koncak i jen lehce prebudim, to zabuceni se ozve. Kdyz pak signal slabne, buceni v zavislosti na jeho puvodni sile tu drive, tu pozdeji zmizi. Kdyz je kytara krmena i nejakou krabickou, muze tak zesilovac bucet i pomerne dlouho.
To zabuceni bych popsal jako hluboky ton, ktery se ozve spolu s hranym. Asi bych ani nerekl, ze by s ouvdnim tonem nejak ladil. Proste buci a znervoznuje me. Po dnesnim experimentovani s PowerBrakem si myslim, ze by ho preslechnout nemohla ani moje holka (a ja pochybyju, ze bych mel nejak extremne citlivy sluch). Nachylne k buceni jsou struny G a tlustsi a to od noty C vyse. Treba uz takove E zahrane na strune G zahrane na devatem prazci me privadi uplne k zoufalstvi. Stejny ton na vinutych strunach je snad jen trochu mene deprimujici. E zahrane na strune H (paty prazec) je na tom o poznani lepe. Zrejme na ten pazvuk maji vliv ty frekvence produkovane silnejsimi strunami.
Tento jez pozoruju jak na zes. Marshall JTM 612 se dvema EL34, tak u reissue modelu 1974x se dvema EL84 ve vykonovem zesilovaci.
Je to normalni? Je to vec obvodu a nektere zesilovace (typy/kusy) to holt delaji a jine ne? Zpusobuji to silnejsi struny (10 na stratu, 11 na Les Paulu)? Spatne elektronky v koncaku (v obou zesilovacich jsou vsechny prakticky nove)? Muze to byt treba elektrickou siti v nasem dome (nejake zarizeni u sousedu nebo ve vybaveni domu me treba ve dne v noci rusi)? Kdo vi, at prosim napovi.
[havran]
GHOST NOTES
Ghost note je dost mozna pojmenovani vyse popisovaneho jevu. Na poucnem webu http://www.aikenamps.com/TechInfo_2.htm se k tomu vyjadruji takto
Q: Some time ago I purchased an amp from a well-known boutique amplifier maker (whose name I won't mention here). This expensive amp has "new/old" switch on the back. The manual explains that the "new" mode corresponds to the pentode mode and the "old" to the triode one. The trouble is that in the "old" triode mode the amp produces ghost- notes that are out of pitch! Hearing out-of-pitch after-sounds really confuses my playing. The manufacturer says "that's normal" and points to the Matchless brand that "does the same"... I'd be curious to hear Randall's opinion on this subject.
A: In general, triode mode is much more sensitive to insufficiently-filtered power supplies (which is what causes most "ghost-noting") than pentode mode. This is because in pentode mode, the screen grid supply is usually taken off from a point after a filter choke/filter capacitor. The plate supply is usually taken off from the first filter cap, which has a lot more ripple voltage on it. This is okay in pentode mode, because, in a pentode, the screen grid voltage has far more control over the plate current than the plate element does, so the ripple/hum/noise on the plate supply doesn't get into the output. Also, there is some inherent power supply rejection due to the push-pull arrangement.
When you switch to triode, mode, what you are doing is moving the screen grid connection from the nice, quiet, filtered point and connecting it to the plate of the output tube. Now, there is no relatively stabilized screen supply to keep the plate current quiet, and the triode-mode tube will respond to the under-filtered supply.
The tube acts as a "mixer" in this case, where the 120Hz (or 100Hz if you are on the other side of the pond) full-wave rectified ripple voltage mixes with the note you are playing, and generates sum and difference frequencies that are not harmonically related to the note. These "out-of-tune" frequencies sound like a second note following your playing, and can get really annoying. This is closely related to something called "intermodulation distortion" which occurs in all tube amps, regardless of pentode/triode mode, as a byproduct of the overdrive/distortion generation itself, but not at that great a level.
The solution to your triode mode problem is more filtering in the power supply. Some pentode amps will also exhibit this problem if they have insufficient filtering in the power supply section, or in the screen supply. As mentioned previously, there will be some intermodulation distortion present in all amps, but you can usually easily distinguish between it and "ghost-noting" caused by a poorly-filtered supply. Improperly designed bias supplies can also cause this problem, again due to lack of filtering resulting in too much ripple voltage on the supply. In addition, "ghost-noting" can be caused by the speakers themselves. Some brands/models are worse than others.
===================================
Na strankach MOJAVE amplifiers se k tomu zase pravi toto"
"High Z power supply without the ghost-notes:
Another classic design feature found on the Coyote is the high impedance power supply, which is found in almost all vintage amplifiers. The high impedance power supply causes some variance in the amplifier's current levels when demand is placed on the amp or when the amp is run at full power. Typically a high impedance power supply will fluctuate with the player's performance, which tends to give the amp a distinct character. This phenomenon is readily found in tube rectified vintage guitar amps. This is a feature that is considered desirable by most players. The trade off is that this condition can cause the user to hear a “Ghost note” on top of the fundamental note. While the Coyote was designed with a high impedance power supply, it was also designed to reduce the “Ghost note” effect to a level below detection, thus giving the Coyote the best of both worlds."
GHOST NOTES
Ghost note je dost mozna pojmenovani vyse popisovaneho jevu. Na poucnem webu http://www.aikenamps.com/TechInfo_2.htm se k tomu vyjadruji takto
Q: Some time ago I purchased an amp from a well-known boutique amplifier maker (whose name I won't mention here). This expensive amp has "new/old" switch on the back. The manual explains that the "new" mode corresponds to the pentode mode and the "old" to the triode one. The trouble is that in the "old" triode mode the amp produces ghost- notes that are out of pitch! Hearing out-of-pitch after-sounds really confuses my playing. The manufacturer says "that's normal" and points to the Matchless brand that "does the same"... I'd be curious to hear Randall's opinion on this subject.
A: In general, triode mode is much more sensitive to insufficiently-filtered power supplies (which is what causes most "ghost-noting") than pentode mode. This is because in pentode mode, the screen grid supply is usually taken off from a point after a filter choke/filter capacitor. The plate supply is usually taken off from the first filter cap, which has a lot more ripple voltage on it. This is okay in pentode mode, because, in a pentode, the screen grid voltage has far more control over the plate current than the plate element does, so the ripple/hum/noise on the plate supply doesn't get into the output. Also, there is some inherent power supply rejection due to the push-pull arrangement.
When you switch to triode, mode, what you are doing is moving the screen grid connection from the nice, quiet, filtered point and connecting it to the plate of the output tube. Now, there is no relatively stabilized screen supply to keep the plate current quiet, and the triode-mode tube will respond to the under-filtered supply.
The tube acts as a "mixer" in this case, where the 120Hz (or 100Hz if you are on the other side of the pond) full-wave rectified ripple voltage mixes with the note you are playing, and generates sum and difference frequencies that are not harmonically related to the note. These "out-of-tune" frequencies sound like a second note following your playing, and can get really annoying. This is closely related to something called "intermodulation distortion" which occurs in all tube amps, regardless of pentode/triode mode, as a byproduct of the overdrive/distortion generation itself, but not at that great a level.
The solution to your triode mode problem is more filtering in the power supply. Some pentode amps will also exhibit this problem if they have insufficient filtering in the power supply section, or in the screen supply. As mentioned previously, there will be some intermodulation distortion present in all amps, but you can usually easily distinguish between it and "ghost-noting" caused by a poorly-filtered supply. Improperly designed bias supplies can also cause this problem, again due to lack of filtering resulting in too much ripple voltage on the supply. In addition, "ghost-noting" can be caused by the speakers themselves. Some brands/models are worse than others.
===================================
Na strankach MOJAVE amplifiers se k tomu zase pravi toto"
"High Z power supply without the ghost-notes:
Another classic design feature found on the Coyote is the high impedance power supply, which is found in almost all vintage amplifiers. The high impedance power supply causes some variance in the amplifier's current levels when demand is placed on the amp or when the amp is run at full power. Typically a high impedance power supply will fluctuate with the player's performance, which tends to give the amp a distinct character. This phenomenon is readily found in tube rectified vintage guitar amps. This is a feature that is considered desirable by most players. The trade off is that this condition can cause the user to hear a “Ghost note” on top of the fundamental note. While the Coyote was designed with a high impedance power supply, it was also designed to reduce the “Ghost note” effect to a level below detection, thus giving the Coyote the best of both worlds."
[rgx]
Re:
Já myslím, že původ může být jak v kytaře, tak i v zesilovači. V pradávných dobách jsem měl Jolanu Galaxis a tam to bylo pravidlem zejména u starších strun. Na stratu (Asie) mi to tolik nikdy nedělalo. Hodně záleží taky na tom, jak zesilovačem procházejí určité frekvence. U starých strun lze vidět, že po brnknutí běží po struně jakýsi kmit nebo vlna. Ta má velmi malou frekvenci, většinou pár Hz. Pokud máš v tom případě nastavený hodně velký Gain a zesilovač je schopen hrát dobře basy, tak to je slyšet. K tomu se může přidat ten problém napájení (jak píšou na MOJAVE), protože zesilovač si tím parazitním tónem hrábne dost hluboko (pro pokrytí potřeby výkonu klesne napětí) a tón při attacku se zcela zbortí.
Re:
Já myslím, že původ může být jak v kytaře, tak i v zesilovači. V pradávných dobách jsem měl Jolanu Galaxis a tam to bylo pravidlem zejména u starších strun. Na stratu (Asie) mi to tolik nikdy nedělalo. Hodně záleží taky na tom, jak zesilovačem procházejí určité frekvence. U starých strun lze vidět, že po brnknutí běží po struně jakýsi kmit nebo vlna. Ta má velmi malou frekvenci, většinou pár Hz. Pokud máš v tom případě nastavený hodně velký Gain a zesilovač je schopen hrát dobře basy, tak to je slyšet. K tomu se může přidat ten problém napájení (jak píšou na MOJAVE), protože zesilovač si tím parazitním tónem hrábne dost hluboko (pro pokrytí potřeby výkonu klesne napětí) a tón při attacku se zcela zbortí.